Thursday, April 8, 2010
Musicals are great!
Well, let the fun begin as I know what Igor is going to say on this subject. To me there is nothing better than Singing in the Rain, Fiddler on the Roof, Jesus Christ Superstar and Fantom of the Opera. I love seeing exceptionally talented people have to act, sing and dance in front of a live theatre audience. Musicals are magical and I prefer them to Opera, Ballet, and regular theatre. I appreciate the other disciplines but to me they are just not as interesting.
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Another loyal customer within cultural fast food industry. They come up with crap, and right you go gobble it up. Musicals are great, I agree, if you want completley mindless plot, which requires no thinking and interpretation. I personally like several (Fantom and JC from your list above), but the rest are an absolute blah. If you want a quick acting drug for your brain, musicals are for you. However, if you are tired of the primitive plots and cheesy music: consider EVOLVING to try and digest something above Gerber Baby grade entertainment. The other disciplines are not "interesting" because it takes work to understand what is going on, instead of being spoon fed some primitive shit by the creators of musicals. The balet, that you "appreciate" but don't "find it interesting" is not about pure entertainment, but rather expressing feelings and story through dance. Dance, which requires talent and skill to express the right way. You can take any actor and make them part of a musical. Good luck doing that with a balet performance.
ReplyDeleteSo again, sum up: I call musicals trash since they are primitive fast food for your mind. Just like vast majority of movies made today (I am sure we will have a discussion about that soon).
BTW, I went to see Abba the musical. I liked it. It was creative, songs were well performed, smooth plot. But, compared with Eifman Ballet performance, it is shit. Comparing a filet mignon to triple decker with cheese from Burger King. Thus, if junk food is what you enjoy, musicals is your thing. If you want to push your mind further, then move on to balet and opera.
Trigor Trigor Trigor, I say your name three times because you are wrong on 3 counts. First, you mentioned that you like Phantom and JC but the rest is blah...You really thought Fiddler on the Roof was blah? How about Les Miserables? How about West Side Story or My Fair Lady and countless other great (not blah) stories that are dramas as you enjoy?
ReplyDeleteSecond, do you really think that the great operas have better plots than great musicals? I like Marriage of Figaro and Madam Buterfly but they, like most of the Operas, are just dealing with the daily lives of people and are usually about love. Musicals do the same just in English :) Maybe you love Opera because you like the sound of Italian?
Third, while I agree with you that Ballet is incredible in its expression of emotion through dance and Opera has better singers than Musicals I disagree that Musicals are fast food. They, like Ballet and Opera, are Theatre and as movies (which we will discuss) are simply reflections of the times. They are meant to be enjoyed and people can read into them or not. So get off your high horse and appreciate the genre for what it is - a beautiful story that is sung and danced and acted.
Dude, stop right there. Both Fiddler and Les M. are based on classic genious novels! So your bloating that this musical's story is a "masterpiece" can go straight to trash. It's like me taking "Crime and Punishment" and making a "musical" out of it: hire bunch of actors, and make few rhyming songs based on the content and whoila: a masterpiece is born. PLEASE. You want to talk about real musical's content? Lets take Wicked. Or Abba. Take any musical with ORIGINAL content, and we will talk. Of course, you will make a point that many operas are also based on classical literature (Eugene Onegin): I will get to that in a second.
ReplyDeleteThe reason why I liked JC opera and Phantom, is due to the genious of Weber. He does great stuff (with exception of Cats), and I acknowledge that both singing and the story lines of both musicals are great. What I am attacking, however, is the classical musical format. An excellent example would be Wicked. Primitive plot that did not make sense, simple songs, simple acting. The only good thing to say about it is the stage props. Blah! The whole style of musicals (the standard one) is primitive in a sense that it does not require you to think. Same structure, same style of dancing.
So, purely artistically speaking, comparing the opera with a typical musical: opera wins with no question asked due to the mere aspect of performance. Like I said, you can take any mediocre actor to perform in a musical ... shit, they don't even have to be true singers, and you got yourself a performance, which you will gobble up in a heartbeat. But with Opera, its a bit different.
Can you seriously say that a musical will purtray feelings the same way as lets say Nessun Dorma aria? Lets take this aria, and take an "aria" (notice the quotes) of JC in JC Superstar musical. Can you even come close in singing between the two? JC shines as a classic rock adaptation of the biblical story - it's very COOL. Nessun Dorma - a gourgeous aria, that make you shiver in your skin as you listen to the guy who is facing death. Thats the difference between a musical and opera: opera touches you, musicals you enjoy. Same goes with food, books, art.
Of course, to each their own. I am sure you will find plenty of people who will share your passion for musicals. And that is great: musicals have their target audience, their goals. You relax. You enjoy the story, you enjoy the lights, dancing, singing. It is easy on your brains and your eyes. And there is absolutely NOTHING WRONG with loving musicals. I am just saying that among forms of art, there are "fast food" creations, and there are masterpieces. I, personally, prefer to go after masterpieces, and at least try to figure out what they are about, even though it is much easier to digest mainstream "easy listening" content. Another example which illustrates my point are books: lets take "angels and demons" vs. "crime and punishment". We can argue about those in another blog.
Igor, I wanted to thank you for making me do some research and expanding my horizons. I have read the synopsis of Turandot and have heard the Nessun Dorma sang by Calaf. I have to say the Aria is beautiful and the story is intersting. However, I present to you the actual words Calaf is singing:
ReplyDeleteNobody shall sleep!...
Nobody shall sleep!
Even you, o Princess,
in your cold room,
watch the stars,
that tremble with love and with hope.
But my secret is hidden within me,
my name no one shall know...
No!...No!...
On your mouth I will tell it when the light shines.
And my kiss will dissolve the silence that makes you mine!...
(No one will know his name and we must, alas, die.)
Vanish, o night!
Set, stars! Set, stars!
At dawn, I will win! I will win! I will win!
Compare that with another song from one of my favorite musicals sung by a little orphan who is dreaming of her parents, her place in life and trying to keep faith (original story and not created by Weber) - Annie:
Maybe far away
Or maybe real nearby
He may be pouring her coffee
She may be straightening his tie.
Maybe in a house
All hidden by a hill
She's sitting playing piano,
He's sitting paying a bill!
Betcha they're young
Betcha they're smart
Bet they collect things
Like ashtrays, and art!
Betcha they're good --
(Why shouldn't they be?)
Their one mistake
Was giving up me!
So maybe now it's time,
And maybe when I wake
They'll be there calling me "Baby"...
Maybe.
Betcha he reads
Betcha she sews
Maybe she's made me
A closet of clothes!
Maybe they're strict
As straight as a line...
Don't really care
As long as they're mine!
So maybe now this prayer's
The last one of it's kind...
Won't you please come get your "Baby"
...Maybe
My friend, life is not simple and to put one genre in a box and label it Blah is a copout. Opera, Ballet, Musicals, Books and Movies all have their greats and not so greats. Let's stop the labeling and just enjoy them.
Evidently, you did not do your research well enough. You are missing the part as to what the character is singing in Nessun Dorma, and what secret he is talking about. In your PRIMITIVE view, again you are thinking: Oh, he is singing about love. Not quite. Go back to the interwebz, and find out what he is really singing about.
ReplyDeleteBecause YOUR interpretation of the area based on the words is wrong. However, your approach to decipher the meaning of your little post from your favorite musical is just that: an orphan singing about her parents. Ok, I get the point. That was nice. So? Yeah, you can call it beautiful. But it is primitive. See the difference?
Remember, you can enjoy your whapper with cheese. And call it the greatest meal of all. You can even compare it to filet mignon, and argue that look, they are both meat products. And, to make your point, you can garnish your cheeseburger with a little leaf of cillantro. Look, a beautiful, mouthwattering meal! NOT!
Trigor, first of all I do not need to go back to my research to know what Calaf is singing about. He gave the princess the night to find his true name (which coincidentally is LOVE) and if she does he will take his life. If not he will marry her.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, I find you to be somewhat hypocritical since you yourself would not have known what Calaf was singing about unless you read it in the booklet that came with the show or on the "telepromptor" during the show.
Thirdly, you can put whatever wrapper you wish on your agrument but it still stinks of the same high horse riding, intellectual want-to-be spirit I wish for you to go without. Don't put Opera and Ballet and yourself above others just enjoy them and judge not.
What does it matter how somebody sings or dances, if the words are primitive or in another language (and you don't even realzie if they are primitive)When you listen to opera in Italian, you dont' understand words, right? yet it makes you feel something. I think the same goes for evrything in arts or in life. It doesn't matter what it is. What matters is how it makes you feel. If it triggers something in your mind/heart/soul, then it is good (for you). Can you honestly say that you absolutely love Van Gogh's paintings? I am sorry, but I don't get many of them. I see it, but it raises nothing in my soul. Why do so mnay people like his art, though? To them, it is magical because it triggers something. Don't think it says anything about me (like I am not cultured enough for Vincent, although who knows). It's simple preference.
ReplyDeleteLadies, there is no objective world. Haven't you taken philosophy? Everythign is percieved through prizm od your experiences and therefore subjective. Musicals are just musicals. It is you who makes it good or bad.
Mudraya Mashka
Masha, I am not sure I fully agree. Your point is valid, as you are basically saying: look, tru art is what touches you. From a pure argument perspective, its a convinient way to "defend" ones views and taste. You can use this logic to say: there is a garbage can outside my window. It is beautiful. It's a true form of art. And the sad thing, is that you can't say anything in response, as you are right: what we enjoy is trully subjective. And I agree: I am not saying that musicals are evil. Some are wonderful, some are really bad, some are good (for their janra).
ReplyDeleteWhat I am saying, is that certain things are primitive in their content/style. A great example would be ... well, lets take books by Marinina. She writes detektivi that my parents devour weekly. And she produces them just as fast. They are great as they are extremely easy to read, and reading them does not require any work. As my mom put it: I did my share of reading serious books, and now I want to relax and just enjoy life. These books are targeted toward the wide range of people who want an easily digestable books that don't require much thought process. What I am saying that I'd rather read a book that requires me to excersise my brain cells, rather than fill it with the "fast food" content.
I just want you two to understand that I am by no means bashing musicals, but rather saying that musicals are more primitive in content and set up compared with other forms of musical art out there. And that is why Allen finds them so enjoyable: they are easy to digest, they have simple plots, they are fun. Opera requires you to learn the content, and then listen, and I mean concentrate while opera is sung in order to fully appreciate it. It is not easy - and that is why the wide spectrum of the population does not go seeing the performances.
Trigor,
ReplyDeleteLet me just point out that there have been thousands of Operas and the ones you are talking about are the most famous ones that are still being played. Thus to say that this particular genre is best think of perhaps Lenin in October - also an Opera!
To sum up I believe Igor that you lost this argument and we should move on to another topic.
Allen, the only thing that I lost in this argument is my belief that you have taste. You clearly don't.
ReplyDeleteYou can make a perversion of anything, so Lenin in October is such. We are not comparing particular operas, we are using particular operas to compare janras. I still maintain that opera is far more superior in it's content compared with fluffy cabaret musicals. My argument comparing musicals to fast food stands strong. Just like you stay strong as part of the herd ready to gobble up fat dripping junk food. To each their own!
Trigor,
ReplyDeleteAs with most of our discussions I think you and I will remain with our own opinions. Thus to see who wins we will setup a polling system so the people reading our "poop" can vote. Agree?
Whatever ... you will win the vote because guess what: it will be used by the herd! And guess what herd likes more: a fine meal or a cheeseburger? So vote away my friend!
ReplyDeleteRemember the experience of explicitly granting university admissions to people from rural areas in Russia? It is similar to affirmative action here in the states.
I guess enjoy the musicals. They will wonderfully shield you from so much unneeded brain activity. :)
BTW, granted that I am by far not the brightest person out there, decided to google for some comparasings between the janras. Found this post on a forum somewhere which I fully agreed with. Well put!
ReplyDelete"Beyond stylistic preference over time (more or less "legit" tendencies at different periods), it's really a matter of different interpretive priorities.
Musical theatre is primarily a dramatic medium WITH music. As with all plays, the #1 priority for singers in a musical to convey the meanings and emotions of the text effectively. This often means using speech-like inflections and sacrificing vocal legato when necessary.
With some exceptions (especially modern/postmodern ones), opera is first and foremost a musical form. The libretto is always at the service of the music, not the other way around. Yes, it's better when the words can be understood, but emotion is not conveyed through the text - it's conveyed through the music. This is why works like Villa Lobos' Bachianas Brasileiras No. 5 and Rachmaninov's Vocalise can be so emotionally moving - the voice acts as a musical instrument, and in fact does so with all classical singing, but especially with opera. Vocal legato, etc., are critical because they are the requisites of effective musical expression. This is also why we can listen to operas in languages we don't understand, and still be moved by them. I think you'd find that less likely of, say, a Finnish-language production of CHICAGO (unless you happen to speak Finnish)."
Trigor,
ReplyDeleteAnd I am OK with that. I do look at Opera as music first but that is not what we are discussing. You are trying to prove that Opera is better and I am saying you shouldn't be comparing. Let's agree that Opera is the beauty of Voice, Ballet is the beauty of Dance and Musicals are far supperior lol. Just kidding. They are their own disciplines and as Mudraya Mashka stated to each his/her own. I say enjoy all and choose what suits you best without demeaning the others.
Yet again, why do you fail to READ and UNDERSTAND what I am saying?
ReplyDeleteOK. LET'S TRY THIS ONE LAST TIME. PLEASE READ CAREFULLY!!!!! READY??
It is NOT about which one is better. NOT. HET. One is not better than the other. It is about which one is more primitive than the other. Which one is simpler. Which one requires more to understand it. Get it? An example will help perhaps:
A song "Itsy bitsy spider went up the water sprout". And, moonlight sonata. See the difference? You are saying that the itsy bitsy song is on par with moonlight sonata as far as it's reach and beauty go. I am saying that itsy bitsy song is very primitive, and will appeal to a much wider segment of the population due to it's simplicity. Get it?
NOT BETTER. JUST A LOT MORE ADVANCED.
Here is another post I stole off the interwebz. Very eloquently put. Please read.
ReplyDelete"In opera, everything exists in a "heightened" state. The stories are epic, the ideas are big, and the characters are larger than life. The goal is artistic, and singers strive to achieve beauty and power in their vocal production. Primarily, opera achieves dramatic success through the music itself, and the successful execution of that music. Performers tend to "present" emotions and feelings instead of BEING those emotions or feelings (because it would interfere with vocal production). Opera comes from the European tradition of art music.
Musical Theater aims to be instantly relatable and appealing. The stories feature characters who are more down to earth. The goal is financial success by giving the public what it wants to see, and singers have microphones because the portrayal of the character is usually more important than the quality of the voice itself. Primarily, Musical Theater achieves dramatic success through story and characters, and performers tend to emote naturally as one would in a play. Musical Theater evolved in 20th Century New York, and is thoroughly American.
"Sweeney Todd" can be considered operatic because the grandeur of the story lends itself well to operatic conventions. If desired, the score can be sung in an operatic style. The characters, however, are better developed than in most operas, and there is much dialogue which would sound unnatural if spoken in anything other than a natural speaking tone. The score itself is unusually musically intelligent (as musical theater goes), and drama is achieved through music (without the aid of a character), moreso than in most other musicals. "
Trigor,
ReplyDeleteLet's deal with the issue here as you seem to be missing the real one - that is you cannot say that ALL Operas are more complex than ALL Musicals. The inclusion of everything in the genre is what gets you into trouble. Using your own vernacular, I would say that Lenin in October is the Itsi Bitsi Spider to La Bohem.
You cannot elevate the genre.
Igor,
ReplyDeleteI didn't see your other copy from the Interwebz but it just smells of the Opera Snob!
And again, you did NOT read into my posts. I never said ALL, and if you go back to my previous posts, you will see that I specifically mention that there are good operas, and probably not so good ones. Same goes for musicals.
ReplyDeleteWhat I am saying, is that if you take the classical style musical, a good one, and take a classical style opera, a good one, the opera will bring you more than the musical, that is if you are able to understand it.
get it?
I don't see the author of that post bash either one. He basically udnerstands opera, and you don't. You are locked in with your musicals, and that's it. The truth is, that once you decided on your "professional" opinion about opera vs. musicals, you will stick to it no matter what.
ReplyDeleteThis has been a great discussion.
Trigor,
ReplyDeleteI think we are done with this topic. We will agree to disagree as usual. Let the people decide what they think. The voting on this topic is open until end of Sunday. Good discussion, let's move on.
Attention all shoppers. Please return your man cards to the customer service desk.
ReplyDeleteDon't worry David! Next topic could be porn (straight porn)
ReplyDeleteWith only minutes to go Both are Idiots is leading the vote. Thanks to all for contributing and Igor for arguing. On to the next topic.
ReplyDelete